Lauren Crom Comparison Post 4

Hiren, I really thought that you did a fantastic job assessing the two books in your last post.

I would like to comment about an earlier conversation.  I believe that I had it a man, and this particular conversation was about A Separate Peace.  He said that he has known men who attended private universities... with no women.  These men turned out to be super competitive towards other men because that is their nature.  Reseraching further into this meaning, Stanford was not an all-male school.  I guess it will remain to stump me as to why nothing in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest... not even the view on women was positive.  That is still disturbing, and I think you are correct in assuming that this book could inspire negative behavior.

As to the title of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, I believe a little differently than you.  I think that it represents more of McMurphy than the Chief Bromden, simply because he seemed to be the focus of the story.  Yes, Chief Bromden surprised us all when he talked.  Yes, he surprised us all when he showed the world that he understood their view as much as anyone who had been previously and actively engaged.  But that wasn't the point of the story.  I feel as though the plot was to show how corrupt this society was--it's a Catch-22 of its own sort.  The people who are sane are labeled the chronics, while the chronically insane are free to move about the country (aviation connection of the day!)  Directing this post on a more serious note, I think that the "one" in the title represents McMurphy.  He was the one person who saved and freed and destroyed and imagined (think back to how the crazy author imagined things) this "cuckoo's nest."  He was the one that literally flew--approached, went over, then left--the cuckoo's nest.

As for A Separate Peace, I believe this novel was given this title because... well I am torn between several reasons.  I believe that the relationship between Gene and Phineas was separate from the rest of the world, no matter how anyone tries to connect it.  Separate in the way that no one else understood their relationship, especially how Finny played sports through Gene.  They lived in a separate world, similar to how it is believed that tunnels in space are connected via incomprehensible tunnels in the fabric of space-time.  Or, the title could be quite simple.  The book begins with Gene venturing to his home town and visiting this school where he killed his friend, his enemy, and his idol.  He wants Finny to continue to rest in peace.  He wants Finny to be alone because he knew how eventually people might "crack" him.  Needless to say, "separate" is the most tell-tale word in this title.  It can be implied as stark, friendly, or peaceful.  It is up to the reader to imply which one works best for them.

Again, thanks for being such a thorough partner for this project!  I enjoyed the "word-count challenge!" I also appreciated the variety by which we chose our books.  And if you choose to attend Stanford University, please don't become a writer.

Hiren Ajudia Post 4 Comparison

Lauren, I really liked how you noticed that women were not as influential in both of these books as you may have wanted them to be. I think that a partial reason for this might have been the lack of women right’s awareness during the past times when these books were written. For example, One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest was written in 1950s. During this time period, the women of the house were not in working positions because of the effects of the war, and in turn, women in this time period were house wives. I don’t particularly know about the author’s relationships with women, but it may be possible that their relationships had a profound effect on how women are portrayed in the books—considering how Ken Kesey’s experience with drugs had a major influence on the story. Also, I think that the quote that you had found was an excellent overview of both books. However, I think that the quote “I felt better. Yes, I sensed it like the sweat of relief when nausea passes away; I felt better. We were even after all, even in enmity. The deadly rivalry was on both sides after all” (page 43). I think that this quote summarized the relationship  between both Finny and Gene, McMurphy and the Head Nurse, and also the correspondence between both sets of characters. In both cases, the theme of competition and rivalry was clearly evident. In the first book, both of the characters facing each other had gone against each other without trying to understand their reasoning for their feelings. In the second book, Gene convinced himself that his “enemy” had the same types of feelings towards him as he had for Finny. One thing about in particular that could have changed this feeling in the first book was if the Head Nurse took the time to understand her patients. I know that I suggested this idea earlier in our posts, but I think that the mental ward could have avoided the waged enmity if the Head Nurse was willing to understand the conditions of her patients. I feel that this quote has a connection to the real world as well. In a way, it tells people that making assumptions about their relationships with others can change them for the worse. I think that the importance of this quote is to motivate people to inquire about their current status in any type of relationship. In this specific example, Gene had believed that Finny hated him and that gave justification for his negative behavior and hostile thoughts.

One thing that I would like to mention about both books is the difference in the tone of the stories. In One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, I felt that the narrator was telling the story from a more sympathetic level. He clearly feels bad for the way the patients are treated in the ward, and he makes that clear in the way he describes the wards daily torturous routines. In the other book however, I feel that the book was told in a more reflective way.  I say this because the book begins with the present version of Gene and how his depressing thoughts from fifteen years ago brought him back to the prestigious school. Personally, I think that the tones of the books would have been perfect for the opposite book. This means, that I think that even though the first book was told in a sympathetic way, it deserved to be told in a reflective way. If it was told in a reflective way, it would have served as a way to tell readers how to avoid situations if they could. For example, if it was told using this tone, the author would have been able to analyze whether or not Bromden had acted correctly to hide his hearing abilities from the ward. Also, A Separate Peace deserved to be from a sympathetic tone because the characters in the story had to go through the results of hatred. Although the theme was also a part of the first book, I think that it was not as strong because it did not result in death for a character like it did in our second reading. Also, the second story would have touched the hearts of many who had experienced a mistake in their past friendships if it was told in a way that made the audience feel sorry for the characters.

I wanted to also end my post with my commentary on the book’s titles. I already mentioned how I saw the title of the second book, and that was that “nothing was as peaceful as the summer of a few carless youths.” For the first book, the title really stands out to me. For one, it is based on a children’s rhyme. This reminded me also of the origin of the book The Catcher in the Rye. This is because this book’s title also comes from a child’s song. I think that the title of the first book comes from the end portion where the chief left the mental ward. In a way, I feel like he was able to go over the influence of the ward. I feel that the importance of the “cuckoo’s nest” relates to the mental ward and also how children call each other “cuckoo” when they mean to say that others are crazy. In a way, I feel that this title came from the fact that Bromden did not feel that the mental ward was his home just as a cuckoo bird would find its nest as its home. I hope my thought description makes sense. Do you agree with this reasoning? Why else could these books have been titled this way?

Lauren, I would like to conclude my post by thanking you for being my debate partner. I really appreciate the time you took to help guide my thought process and also to clear up any misunderstandings I had about the book. Thanks!

Lauren Crom Post 3 Comparison

"I been silent so long now it’s gonna roar out of me like floodwaters and you think the guy telling this is ranting and raving my God; you think this is too horrible to have really happened, this is too awful to be the truth! But, please. It’s still hard for me to have a clear mind thinking on it. But it’s the truth even if it didn’t happen" (Kesey).  This quote is actually from the book One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, however it pertains to both A Separate Peace and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.  Hiren, I'm sure that you would understand this analogy.  This is what Chief Bromden states immediately after proving to the mental hospital that he indeed has a voice, which disproves  his life-long reputation of being both a deaf and mute human being.  This is such a significant point in such a terrible story because when people are around Chief Bromden they believe that he can't hear what they are discussing.  Thus the most vital and secretive conversations in the story center around the Chief and the concept that he can't hear them.  This is where the "Sex Candy" part came from, because two of the characters were bragging about their past sex life (as you commented in your previous post).  

The idea of "sex candy" also ties into the ideology that women are bad and negative figures in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.  Associating "sex" with "candy" by mentally insane is disturbing and another reason why I despised how Kenneth Kesey wrote his novel.  Wait... does this book even deserve to be called a novel?  The short answer: NO.  Why? you might ask.  The word "novel" originates from the Latin word "nov" which directly translates into modern English as "new."  Because "novelty" has the prefix of "nov" and is a word of high regard and is often categorized with the word "novel," One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest should not be considered a novel.  This "book" is more like a junkyard of words bound by a tragic attempt of a binding, where inside lie rotting and defiling pages.  Between the two books, not one women (other than that of a prostitute in Kenneth Kesey's book) is portrayed in a positive light.  This could be due to several reasons:  because the authors of these books seemed to pull their experiences (or what they experienced under the influence of illegal substances) they probably did not have a positive history with women.  

What do you think about this, Hiren?  If neither Kenneth Kesey nor Jon Knowles associate women with positive adjectives, then do you believe that this could be due to either lack of female support in their early lives or simply lack of respect for women?  

Hiren, you referred to the reaction of certain characters.  I believe that the character who acted appropriately to countless situations--although I hate to admit because he starred in the book that I despise--was McMurphy.  He was forcefully placed into this hospital when there was no need for him to be there and participate in those discussions.  He moved on and accepted this fact that he was considered a "chronic" and there was no way for him to escape.  Contrary to McMurphys' spirit and intuition that keep him going even when life handed him oranges and told him to make lemonade was Finny.  Finny didn't want to accept that he was hurt, that he could no longer hope for a career in the military.  He could no longer compete or--if Gene were writing this post--"beat" Gene, but rather stand (or sit) on the sidelines and pretend like he didn't care.  Reality is, he cared.  He cared so deeply that the photons of his care couldn't reach the outside of his skin in time to show his appreciation/disappreciation for that particular situation.  

I believe that life is 20% what happens to you and 80% of how you react to what life throws at you.  Because people are given so much leniency (or not) given their situation, I think that Finny should have stepped up.  Gene should have as well.  But McMurphy drove farther than the tsunami was going to hit, fully aware that it could land higher than anyone predicted.  He was an intuitive character--he knew how to cheat the system.  Not smart, but intuitive.  

Hiren, I can't wait to hear what you say in your final post!!!

Hiren Ajudia Post 3 Comparison

Lauren, I really liked how you connected the lives of the authors of both books to the actual story that they had written. I was quite surprised to learn how similar the lives of the authors were in comparison to the story line of both books. Although they stumped me, I also liked how you made direct questions to me in your post. Until you mentioned it, I had not considered how the personal experiences of the authors affected the plot. Based on your previous posts, I am sure that you also agree with me that Ken Kesey’s decision to partake in a drug study was rather unique. Just like I guessed, that experience motivated him to write his novel One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest. It makes me laugh how much you despise this book, especially when you hinted that this book was not as “fantastic” as it seems to be. Your last comment really stumped me. I have not read any other of his works, and based on that I would not be able to correctly answer whether or not the drugs that he took pushed him to be a better writer. However, I can infer that the story of the book would have been much more different because he would not have been able to narrate a book from the perspective of a mental ward if he was not able to experience the types of situations that he wrote about. I can also infer that the drug study left a profound mark on his lifestyle because in my reading about him, I came across how he threw parties which were based on drug effects, and he was also arrested for the possession of marijuana.  After reading his biography, the respect that I had for him both decreased and it also increased. I think that I began to respect him more as an author after reading his biography because it proved that he was capable of being motivated by anything. The specific subject that Ken Kesey was motivated by decreased the respect I had for him because he took inspiration from something that society looks down upon—and that is drug usage. I can see how this book has a negative effect on its audience. In a way, it serves as a motivator for readers to try drug usage and I think that the message in the book is completely negative.

In this post however, I really wanted to focus on how the side characters in both books saw and reacted to the events that unfolded before them. I think that in both cases, both the Head  Nurse and Leper are major characters in their appropriate books but they are not given much representation. i can relate why the Head Nurse was so mad at McMurphy for causing chaos in the ward as soon as he arrived. I am sure that I would be really angry if someone came into my work space and quickly began to destroy the systems that I had set up and as a result, he would have also quickly taken the popularity that I worked so hard to build. In fact, if someone did that to me, I would have been crushed. If I were in the place of the Head Nurse, I would have let the ward run according to the way that the patients had wanted rather than trying to get back at my competition for taking away by power over the ward. In a way, I think that the Nurse was right to be strict with those under her control who disobeyed and mocked her power. If she had been a bit more relaxed, the might have been a possibility that events would have turned out differently for the rest of the ward. Although she was unliked for her strict behavior, I feel that the characters in the story did not find the need to find the reason behind her behavior—she might have felt insecure of her head position, or she might have wanted have a strict behavior with the patients so that she could work one step closer to their cure.

I think that the Head Nurse and Leper do not have a lot in common because the head nurse was more of the controlling type of people while I thought that Leper was more of the background person in the second book. His experience had a great effect one the story line of A Separate Peace just as the Head Nurse effected the story in the first book. However, the nurse’s actions were the result of her direct involvement while Leper’s actions were more indirect. Because he was one of the first who enlisted in the war, the other boys who wanted to enlist also had someone to look up to.  His reactions to the enlisting forced the other boys to change their opinion about working in the war.

After reading these two books, I began to feel sorry for the way that Leper was treated. Not just him, but many other soldiers come home after their service with a broken heart—that it if they return home. I feel that his school community was not considerate at all. He just came from a sensitive situation, and he was immediately put into another one with Finny’s hearing. All in all, I think that both of these characters influenced their corresponding stories much more than what we had given them credit for.

Lauren Crom Post 2 Comparison

Ever since I opened A Separate Peace, I wanted to further research the author (John Knowles).  Having posted already about the author of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (Kenneth Kesey) I want to see how these authors compare; whether they drastically differ or are remarkably similar.

I know that Kenneth Kesey was literally insane.  However, I don't know a thing about what led to the writing of A Separate Peace.  

In John Knowles early life (up to the age of fifteen) he enrolled in a fancy and elite boarding school.  This is most likely where he came up with the inspiration for the Devon School.  This school was considered to be rigorous, and challenging for the author during his stay there.  Because the war is heavily emphasized in A Separate Peace, I decided to research more into where that aspect entered A Separate Peace.  John Knowles grew up around the time that the war was occurring, and thus right after he graduated from his rigorous and elite high school he decided to go join the war efforts.  This was in the place of his college education (for the time being).  I also find it interesting how this is such a major aspect in A Separate Peace, when Gene nonchalantly mentions that he is going to join the war immediately after he leaves his precious Devon School.  This frightens Finny, because for once in Finny's life, he has no control over something.   Thus the value of an education is introduced into the story.  

Though the story of the life of Kenneth Kesey is much more enticing than that of John Knowles, I think they are both fascinating people.  Where the inspiration for One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest came from torture and hallucinations, the inspiration for A Separate Peace was all in the authors mind.  He did make up the characters, however pulling some in from his life.  I wonder who inspired Finny??

Hiren, for the next post I really want to hear your opinion on what Kenneth Kesey did at Stanford to earn money.  Was being the subject of these terrible tests moral and ethical?  Do you think he still could have produced such a "fantastic" piece of writing had he not been under the influence of such drugs?

Hiren Ajudia Post 2 Comparison

Lauren, in my first post, I meant to comment on how transparent the character of Gene was portrayed as in A Separate Peace. Although his friendship itself was not that strong, I think that the best thing about the character of Gene was that he was honest with himself. The quote “Only Phineas never was afraid, only Phineas never hated anyone” (page 37) showed that Gene did not want to lie to himself about his relation with Phineas. In our first book, I think that the honesty was lacking between the two main characters. I say this because Bromden had tried to ignore the fact that he was sane and could hear even though McMurphy saw through him. In the second book, Gene does not deny his actions to Finny as Bromden denied being able to hear the outside world by continuing to act as if he was deaf even after McMurphy had met with him regarding his hearing ability.

Contrary to your belief, I do not think that One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest was as bad as you described it in your posts. Even though it was not as cheery and interesting as we had anticipated, it is still a good story. When we actually think about it, these ugly events are actually happen in the real world. There are people who are mentally unstable who are sent to such dangerous mental wards. I would also like to give commend the author, Ken Kessy for taking a stab at writing through a different perspective. At times, the book was much more difficult to understand in comparison to our later book, but I think that even through a mental perspective, Kesey was able to effectively deliver the storyline to his audience. One reason that I think that the first book may have been more difficult to understand may have been because of the age differences between the two sets of characters in both books. A Separate Peace may have been easier to understand  because it is told from a teenager’s point of view. Currently, we are both in our teen years, and just like the Gene and Finny, we also have high school drama experiences. For example, we both know how jealous plays out between teenage friends because I assume that some type of experience like that may have also happened to us. The terminology which was used in the first book came from adult men. I know for a fact that I was stumped by the lingo used for describing events in the first book. For example, I had a hard time determining what the author meant when he said “that little hustler would of actually burnt me to a frazzle by the time she reached the legal sixteen” (page 43). McMurphy says this when is telling the other men in the ward about his sex life. The sex interest that the men show in the first book makes it harder for people like us to concentrate to their story because we have different priorities.

This previous example leads me to the difference between two main themes in both books. Sexuality is present in the first book while athletics is very important to the story line of the second book. Sex with Candy at the end of the book, for example gives Billy confidence and power. Also, the patients take a lot of pride in discussing their sexual lives with each other at the mental ward. The importance of sex in the first book proves that the characters are under the wrong influences and it also goes to show how the people in the first book viewed each other. In the end when McMurphy takes the mental ward for an outing with two item girls, he gives the impression that the girls were objects that could be used to appease the other men, and they later could be ignored. In the second book, the theme of commitment to athletics sets characters as rivals. This can be seen when Gene becomes jealous that his friend was good in both academics as well as athletics while Gene was only good in academics.

I hope my post was able to give you a different perspective on One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest.

Lauren Crom Post 1 Comparison

Hiren, you hit the nail on the head when you said that the character development of McMurphy and Gene were almost identical.  Throughout both stories, A Separate Peace by John Knowles and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest by Kenneth Kesey, the main characters are illustrated as innocent and there to serve a good purpose.


The main difference that I found was that McMurphy was introduced as a devious character, where Gene was introduced as an innocent character and a great friend.  Gene and Phineas were said to have a mischievous and typical relationship that teenage boys were supposed to have.  “I was beginning to see that Phineas could get away with anything. I couldn’t help envying him that a little, which was perfectly normal. There was no harm in envying even your best friend a little” (Knowles 18).  Then, as A Separate Peace develops, this friendship becomes rivalry.  “To keep silent about this amazing happening deepened the shock for me. It made Finny seem too unusual for – not friendship, but too unusual for rivalry” (37).  Eventually, Gene Forrester ends up stating this:  “Only Phineas never was afraid, only Phineas never hated anyone....All of them, all except Phineas, constructed at infinite cost to themselves these Maginot Lines against this enemy they thought they saw across the frontier, this enemy who never attacked that way – if ever attacked at all; if he was indeed the enemy” (196).  This is a confession as to why he was so jealous of his deranged friend.  


As for One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, I don't really look forward to writing much on this book.  For one, I thought it was the most terrible novel I ever had to read.  I wouldn't even call this book a novel--I would call it a disaster and a mistake of publishing.  If Kenneth Kesey approached me as an editor/editing company, I would have read the first page and denied any publishing rights for this book.  It has damaged the public, making the insane people believe that they can get away with being corrupt for the rest of their life.  No wonder Ken Kesey was at Stanford having LSD and other "hard drugs" tested on him.  No sane person would ever write about this mental hospital in such gruesome depth as he did.  After all, who expects to have a good read when the opening sentence of the book is "They're out there" (Kesey, 1).  Well I have news for you.  Maybe this could have saved the people in the mental hospital from the absolute power of the insane side of the mind:  NO ONE IS OUT THERE.  This book should not even be open for discussion.  

Hiren Ajudia Post 1 Comparison

Lauren, to add onto your comment about Finny’s second incident, I feel that Gene was the one who was blamed because of the past events. I liked the way that you phrased how Gene was innocent in the second incident, but I think that this accusation that Finny put on Gene was not literal. I think that Finny was hurt because Gene’s truth had been told to him by strangers instead of by Gene himself—if he had wanted, Gene could have told Finny about the truth from earlier on. However, I also believe that Gene was not 100% responsible for Finny’s death. Like I mentioned in my previous post, I would hold the other boys such as Brinker the most responsible for Finny’s condition because they had been oblivious to the fact that the two boys had moved on from that painstaking incident, but they still wanted to reopen their wounds for their personal enjoyment. Like you, I was also confused about Finny’s actions towards Gene’s confession. When Gene had tried to confess earlier in the story right after the first incident, Finny had dismissed the thought of his friend acting against him because he had trusted him.

If in our first book, The Chief had realized that by fooling the rest of the ward, we was wrong, then I think that the target of the Head Nurse’s anger may have shifted from Murphy to Bromden. The Head Nurse may have been humiliated for being convinced that Bromden was a liar because he had been able to trick them all into think that he was deaf and mute. It still puzzles me how the Chief had been able to trick the ward. One would think that since it is a medical facility, there would have been tests to find the patient’s real condition. To me, if a metal ward was not able to distinguish the factual evidence from reality, I would feel that they are slacking. Lauren, how would you feel if you were deceived by someone who worked with you?

Since this is our comparison post, I noticed that between the two books, the character developments of the main characters are very similar. I feel that in both cases, the main character was a sort of narrator who told the story of a friend or another peer through their perspective. In One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest Bromden was a bystander where the actual action was happening by McMurphy and the nurse, and in our most recent reading, Finny was the one who had to endure all of the pain.  I also noticed that the roles of both Finny and McMurphy had been alike—they both had some sort of potent personality. In the first book, McMurphy had gotten the rest of the ward to revolt against the powers of the Head Nurse and also to go on the dangerous outing. He had also been able to get the other patients to vote in favor of the schedule change so that the patients could watch baseball. In the second book, I feel that Finny’s personality allows him to get away with things because of the way he interacted with officials. For example, Finny was able to get other boys in the school to begin their personal training exercise by jumping off the tree. All-in-all, I think that these two boys were officially the type of people with a very strong leadership ability. Lauren, do you know of anyone like these characters in real life?

The strongest connection I found in terms of character development was between the Chief himself and Gene. They both somehow killed another important character in their individual story. In the first story, the chief and literally killed McMurphy by suffocating him in his sleep, while in the second book, Gene had killed Finny through shock. I understand that calling Gene a murder is an accusation, but his friend’s death was deeply connected to the way that Gene had acted around him. Personally, I would not have been able to live a day without the guilt of murder if I were in the place of these two characters. How would you feel if you were responsible for the death of a peer?

Although the characters were also very different (the most obvious differences between both pairs Gene and Bromden; and Finny and McMurphy, is that two of them were boys in high school and the other two were men in mental wards) they are also very similar to the way that they are portrayed in their stories. The similarities between both pairs of characters are so astonishing because we had picked these books with no knowledge of the story line.